Stingray disaster

[-DC-]

Sad day for me, something went very wrong with my female ray last night, and she didn't make it.

I am unsure what happened, her and the male have been doing fine, nobody bothers them if anything the male ray bothers everyone the most lol.

My parameters are fine , been doing 20-30 % water changes every 2-3 days i always keep them regular when adding new fish since big fish ad big bio load helps allow the filters to adjust. Both were eating and exploring the tank seemed happy both have had nice white bellies no signs of any problems even those little nip's they had from shipment were almost cleared up.

My regular routine is too switch too very dim night lighting about an hour before lights out, this is when i feed, yesterday when i went down too feed both she and the male took food, then while i was watching i noticed what looked like she was expelling waste, a few jet's of cloudy milky water came up from her ventral area like jets up from base of the tail.

I assumed she was either about too birth/miscarry her pup's I've been reading up on it, and seems too commonly occur after lights out.

I turned out the lights figured it was best too bother her as little as possible during the process it's early still so didn't expect live babies but that was half expected given she was shipped 30 days before the due date.

I switched the bulbs too black light so i could check in on her through the night.

At 1am i noticed her disk was not laying flat, not curled up like i see in pictures of "death curle" but off the ground like she was sitting on something or her belly was swollen lifting her a bit off the ground. I could see clearly that she was breathing fine, and after a few minutes i saw her disk move then she looked like she always does fin edges flat against the ground.

I checked again at 2am, again she wasn't flat on the surface and hadn't moved much since last check, but other then that looked ok.

I woke up again this morning at 4 am, it was dark i was using only one 13w black light so as not too wake the fish but she again had her fins slightly raised but this time didn't seem too be moving.

Not wanting too disturb her I went back too bed. Unable too sleep of course I went back 30 minutes later worried and after inspection i could see she wasn't breathing.

I sat watching for probably half an hour, trying too see if i could see any signs of life I didn't want to turn the lights on and shock everyone over a sleeping fish.

I turned on the lights and removed her from the tank, I did a 50% water change the tank's water was cloudy so she must have released more of the "white milky stuff", no signs of babies and she was still very fat So i don't think she birthed them.

After removing her i inspected her body carefully no signs of bite marks or damage, she had cloudy eyes and her belly was fat and round. The male still looks 100% healthy, both of them are have been eating fine both even ate last night when i was feeding.

My only assumption is something went horribly wrong while trying to pass the babies.

Is there anything else that could cause a ray too go from eating at midnight too dead lass then 4 hours later ?? I cant imagine anything in the water could have been the cause not without effecting the other ray or tank mates in some way?

[charles]

sorry to hear the loss. Sometimes it happens... Did you open her up to see if the pups are there and how far they develop?

[-DC-]

No, i was very tempted too do so.

It was 4am i was half asleep and at the time my only thought what if the parameters are off and my tests didn't pick up, or what if her body or the fluid she expelled is harming my other ray. I just bagged her (man she was HEAVY) and stuck her into he freezer pending disposal.

Then went straight too doing a water change/tank cleaning . The male seems fine, active /actively pestering bichirs he's finally lost interest in the ornate bichirs after discovering my big female endli,

[effox]

Sorry to hear that man, that really sucks.

[charles]

Try opening her. Sometimes fish can have difficulty giving birth and died with pups/eggs still within. I know it happened on my frontosa female.

[-DC-]

Must have been a birthing issue I cant figure out what else it could have been.

Double checked everything today just in case , male looks fine but better safe then sorry.

Temps in that tank are between 82-84, I ran all tests at least 3 times, PH is between 5.5 - 6.0, nitrites and nitrates too low for test too pick up so might as well call it 0, Ammonia came up between 0.0 - 0.5.

i've been doing a 30-40% water change every 3 day's. I'm thinking i will change this too 10-20% every other day.

Feeding small amounts daily/every other day based on how fast the food get's cleaned up. If they slow down so does feeding.The bottom dwellers eat mostly Shrimp and Night crawlers at the moment. It's a bare bottom tank only change is that I recently removed a very large piece of driftwood too make more room.

My main concern now is making sure I'm not doing anything that will cause me too loose the other ray.

I think that pretty much covers my care on that tank in a nut shell...Is there anything I'm missing? anything people think i could change too do better ? tankmates are a little sun catfish, 6 bichirs, a RTG an Oscar and an indo dat nobody bothers the ray. filtration matches stocking running both an FX5 and a large DIY sump/wetdry/trickle tower.


.... side tracking a bit but Charles

What are your thoughts on sand ? Some ray keepers i talk too seem dead against it, others say ray's prefer a sand bed too make them feel secure.

I've always used sand in all my tank's, I find the substrate only helps too stabilize the environment, Online is see allot saying sand will do the opposite

I don't understand the supposed negative effects on water quality since i find debris builds up on a flat bottom just as easily as a sand bottom. Gravel I always found would trap in allot of debris and then occasionally mess everything up when stirred around. Is their any other reason ray's are better on bare bottom then sand ? and in your experience does any color in particular seem too enhance the motoro's color?

[mcrocker]

If you have measurable ammonia but no nitrites/nitrates, maybe something happened to throw your tank off its cycle?

[-DC-]

ya, the ray's were only recently added, so I'm sure the filters are still adjusting a bit too the new bio load but i wouldn't think those levels would be harmful even too a ray. and the male shows no signs of illness.

The tank has some monsters in it but ray's produce allot of waste, a pair this size probably almost doubled the load on the filters alone. When adding large fish too a tank it can take a couple weeks too balance everything out again, however i never find any dangerous levels or spikes as i always stick too strict feeding and water change routine when adding new fish.

[Death's Sting]

Judging from your vivid description of the ray, its sounds as if it had an internal parasite. The other conclusion would be that the tank had not been cycled enough to handle the new bio load, hence the touch of ammonia. One reason the male survived could simply be the fact that its much more healthier. Every ray has its own personal limits, some are just weaker then others.

Also, a common reason for rays to get cloudy eyes is pH fluctuation. In my experience I have found that rays can not tolerate pH fluctuation at all. I usually keep the alkalinity has high as possible. The pH of tank doesn't matter one lick, as long as its stable.

Im sorry for your loss.

[charles]

I use a thin layer of sand. It is what they like to have. I dont know about other people. This is just my experience. A bare tank is easier to clean. But I like to have what they are used to. Plus a little bit of sand can provide some surface area for bacteria.

A thin layer is like only a cm thick only. They will move your sand around to show bare spot, but I don't mind that at all.