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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We're new to the hobby as of this past January and have really struggled to gain a successful understanding of planted tanks. This struggle recently culminated into an awful outbreak of cyanobacteria that killed off half my fish. I know a some ppl may disagree that the BGA was doing it, but I'm convinced. This site triggered me to research cyanobacteria. We tried a 4 day blackout and thought it worked as it did not reappear immediately and the fish stopped getting sick and were back to normal behavior, except for 2 that were quite sick when we started the blackout but they did not die and seemed to be improving. You can read more details about what led me to create this thread on the one I previously started in the Hospital section. About a week after the blackout was finished it reappeared with vengeance, overnight! The fish had all seemed to be recovering but that day they began getting lethargic and ill again.

We ripped down the tank and I boiled AND baked all the sand and driftwood. I bleached-soaked-excessive-rinsed the aquarium and all equipment and I ran bleach through my canister filter including the biological media. I have the filter running on a 5 gallon tank that I have been doing 100% water changes to for 4 days now, plus 5 100% changes the day i did it, to ensure the bleach is completely removed. I threw away the mechanical filters and have not yet replaced them.
I cleaned all the plants with tap water and a toothbrush. I trimmed them dramatically and only kept pieces that looked really healthy and threw the rest away. I have not done any treatment besides manual removal to the plants however, as it sounds like there's a good chance that bleach will kill the plants.

Being new to the hobby and having put out a lot of money in a short amount of time, we did not have a QT/Hospital tank yet. We do now, a 10g.

We're about to start over and I'm hoping to get some help figuring out what we're clearly not grasping. My plants were growing a fair bit but were not healthy with yellowing leaves and pinholes and turning transparent. We had some diatoms and a low amount of green spot algae and BGA which we've recently learned is not algae at all. "My Info" has a description of my tank and equipment. We were dosing .5ml/day of PMDD (from Canadian Aquatics) and injecting about 2bpm of DIY Co2.
Things I feel like I've learned and will correct:
-Aquatic plants need to be STRICTLY maintained, I think i was not removing dying/decaying plant matter in a timely fashion. I believe they were contributing to the imbalance we can not figure out.
-Co2 needs to be maintained at a more stable rate. I believe leaving it off when I am away for the day was a mistake. I am still undecided in regards to turning it off each night or leaving it on. There are just too many opinions out there that lean heavily to one side or the other. We are working towards a proper co2 system but our budget won't allow it just yet.
-I think I am underdosing ferts in relation to the amount of plants, the high lighting and the co2 but I'm not certain because so many ppl insist that over-dosing and overfeeding are the primary causes of algae. I already learned my lesson regarding overfeeding in the beginning of our journey with my betta so I'm confident it's not that. The more I read I'm beginning to think that UNDER or over-dosing ferts can be a gift to algae. We never increased the amount of ferts because the plants continued to grow fairly fast and most ppl seem to agree that's the point whre you know you are adding enough?... but they all showed signs of deficiencies described above. Also near the end when things got really out of control and the fish started dying, we stopped seeing any nitrates in our tests. I think we need to see SOME for a healthy balanced enviroment?
-I don't know how to figure out how much fertilizer to start with, and how to tell if it needs to be increased or decreased as problems arise.
-We will not be adding any living critters to this aquarium again until we are certain we can provide them a stable home.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated to get us on the right track. I can't figure out what is wrong and would really like to begin enjoying the hobby as the last few months have just been stressful and no fun:/
 

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Hi Jacksmom,

I am currently in the process of writing a whole page about algae on my website about nature aquariums (that I will share shortly) which I think you will find very helpful... but here are some initial comments regarding your notes:

-Aquatic plants need to be STRICTLY maintained, I think i was not removing dying/decaying plant matter in a timely fashion. I believe they were contributing to the imbalance we can not figure out.


  • Yes/no. If you are really hardcore, you should be taking off all the dead leaves as soon as you see them. A plant trying to maintain its dead leaves will waste energy on that rather than growing new leaves. It wont be fun if its not your thing to get your hands wet everyday and get every little last detail. You should be able to enjoy it. That being said, you can let it grow and do its thing too if you get the right balance

-Co2 needs to be maintained at a more stable rate. I believe leaving it off when I am away for the day was a mistake. I am still undecided in regards to turning it off each night or leaving it on. There are just too many opinions out there that lean heavily to one side or the other. We are working towards a proper co2 system but our budget won't allow it just yet.


  • CO2 goes on when lights are on. Turns off when lights are off. If you have a solenoid this shouldn't be an issue. If you're going on vacation, you can let it do its thing, but if you're going to turn off* Co2, you have to turn the light down as well. I had a very fun experience with this (lots of dying plants...)

-I think I am underdosing ferts in relation to the amount of plants, the high lighting and the co2 but I'm not certain because so many ppl insist that over-dosing and overfeeding are the primary causes of algae. I already learned my lesson regarding overfeeding in the beginning of our journey with my betta so I'm confident it's not that. The more I read I'm beginning to think that UNDER or over-dosing ferts can be a gift to algae. We never increased the amount of ferts because the plants continued to grow fairly fast and most ppl seem to agree that's the point whre you know you are adding enough?... but they all showed signs of deficiencies described above. Also near the end when things got really out of control and the fish started dying, we stopped seeing any nitrates in our tests. I think we need to see SOME for a healthy balanced enviroment?


  • I would dose 1/3 of what bottle recommendations are (especially micronutrients*** fromy my experience this is what gave me the most algae). Unless your tank is littered with plants, you'll have a lot of excess nutrients - which all contribute to creating algae. Regarding your cyanobacteria - this is the result of low oxygen levels. When I ran an air pump in my tank (when lights are off), my BGA died slowly over time. It might also help to increase the flow along with adding in oxygen via air pump. No medical treatment necessary. The bottles never take into consideration what kind of plants you have - plants that use nutrients from the roots or from the water column - or whether they need a lot of Co2 or additional fertilization or not.

-I don't know how to figure out how much fertilizer to start with, and how to tell if it needs to be increased or decreased as problems arise.
-We will not be adding any living critters to this aquarium again until we are certain we can provide them a stable home.


  • I'm in the process as well of putting together a plant deficiency and treatment table =). I'll share it with you when I'm done. I would say dose based on whats needed rather than EI dosing. Sure... its kind of a guessing game but you'll understand your tank as you do it and provide what it only needs.
 

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Since you are starting over there is less pressure without any livestock, take your time to read and learn about the balance between lighting, fertilizer, and co2. Here are some info that has helped me when I started. While there are different methods of dosing, I found that Estimative Index was the easiest to understand.

Guide to EI Dosing method:
The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/planted-tank-specific-13/intro-ei-estimated-index-82/

Dosing calculator:
Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Calculators & Information

Planted tank information:
The Planted Tank Forum - Powered by vBulletin

Also, keep in mind that you are restarting your cycle because you bleached all your equipment and filter media.

I'm still pretty new to this hobby myself, but feel free to PM me if you have more questions or specific topics you'd like to discuss.
 

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Thank you for posting your experience on BC Aquaria. I find there is a lot of valuable information on this site.But by no means our we experts.There is no scientific way of doing a planted tank.We can only tell you what works for us.I am sure everyone has had cyanobacteria at
some point.From my experience it is best to start slow.Choose easy plants and go from there.As for Co2 I have found there is no cheap way of getting around it.Some people may have success but I am sure they have more knowledge about it than most new Aquarist.Co2 needs to be consistent and the most reliable way is through a proper regulator and Co2 tank.I also would recommend a Co2 indicator for new hobbyist.Most of us use timers for Co2 so be sure to get one with a solenoid.For fertilizers I only use if needed.You need to know what your plants are lacking.An example red plants need Iron.I find it is best to start with plants first and get your tank established.I change out my plants frequently and try new ones.Some plants grow like crazy and require frequent trimming.Some I change out because I do not like the look.I also use dirted soil rather than gravel.I do use gravel in some tanks but dirt gives me better results with plants.From my experience on this site Reckon,Bien,and RKWong have the best knowledge on planted tanks.There tanks are amazing.I would also read Dou thread as well.I am sure everyone has made mistakes and spent lots of money on planted tanks but I can ensure you the benefits are rewarding.Best of luck on your restart and never give up.
 
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I completely agree with Jousters. We are by no means experts, but people who really love this hobby - so I would say take what you can and keep experimenting. No tank is completely free of algae... unless you've devoted your life to this (and/or you're ADA... because their tanks are friggin immaculate). Don't give up!

I also think that I need to add a disclaimer as well: My comments were what works for me - but a lot of people do EI dosing with no issues either. I do however strongly believe that micronutrients contribute a lot to the growth of algae.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ty for the the quick responses. I'm going to read the suggested links and come back with questions. I don't mind spending a lot of time with our aquarium. I check on them every few hours. I have a betta named Jack that I adore in a 10g with 2 horned nerite snails. I love visiting them and playing "tag" with Jack. We did have almost 2 months where I felt like things were things were coming together in the 26g. It felt pretty awesome and was very relaxing the evening to hear and see the tank. I didn't mean to suggest I'm considering giving up! I'm just feeling pretty terrible about the fish that died as a direct result of my inexperience and not understanding "what" I did exactly to ensure I don't repeat the error.

One thing, tomorrow I will have completed ten 100% percent water changes to flush the bleach on my canister filter and biological media. I should definitely be safe to set up my aquarium again and begin cycling it? There's no reason not to reuse the biological media since I bleached it? Or the baked and boiled sand and driftwood? It should all be safe to reuse? Ty for now:)
 

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I'm interested to hear what other people have to say about reusing biological media even after bleaching.
I personally never reuse media especially the porous clay type. I'm just too paranoid that all the stuff within the pores either don't die out completely or it if does die will rerelease when placed back into the filter.

Besides using bleach to kill algae you can also use hydrogen peroxide. It has much less immediate toxicity to plants and fish. The 3% stuff from any drug store is ideal - just dip the plants for 5 minutes and it'll pretty much kill everything on the plant without hurting the plant itself - this includes parasites, snails, etc.

You are right in that ideally its best to keep everything stable - nutrients, water parameters, and CO2.
Hence, using injected CO2 whilst more expensive really helps with stability over DIY CO2 though your bubble counter and valve will be very beneficial to stability.

I'm not sure if you have purchased a water testing kit yet, but I recommend it for learning when and how much to dose. Many people use the EI route (dose regularly and then use weekly water changes to take out the excess) but you can also simply teach yourself how much to dose to maintain a certain amount of nutrients within the water column. If using CO2 I recommend keeping at least 20:1 ppm of NO3 to PO4 in your water column. Cyanobacteria shows up not only from lack of O2 but also if you bottom out of nitrates whilst using CO2.

Personally, when dealing with Cyanobacteria I don't bother with the stress of spot dosing, blackouts, etc etc. I make sure I have nitrates in the water column, have a good ripple moving across the water surface, I try to manually remove as much blue-green algae, and then I dose erythromyacin. I do a 50% water change 2 days later. It's not the cheapest route to dealing with BGA but it should be gone within 5 days and it should for the most part stay gone unless you have not corrected the root causes or still have some algae buried under the substrate. A side affect of using erthyromyacin can be green water, so be prepared to combat that (easiest way just run UV).

One aspect of planted tank keeping that a lot of people forget about is managing GH buffering. Your plants (and fish) will appreciate minerals such as calcium, magnesium, and potassium. You should at least have 4 degrees of GH in your tank, any less and your average plants won't do well.

Also, plants do have to adapt to new water parameters so it's not uncommon to see them languish for a couple weeks before making a comeback. Be careful of the plants you buy at the local pet shop - some of those are not always true aquatic plants.

Finally, keep in mind that 'new tank syndrome' affects your fish tank for I think up to 4 months (sometimes more). That means there will be signs of instability - algae, fish diseases, cloudy water, plants not looking healthy etc. Hang in there and deal with the problems as they come up, do regular water changes and filter cleanings but over time the tank will stabilize.

Taking care of plants can get complicated. Those of us who have been doing it for a while can take for granted that we've learned to 'spot' the problems and know what tactics to employ to get things back in order: dosing changes, cleaning, spot dosing metricide, using UV, applying more flow, turning up or down CO2, etc etc. But stick to the basics of stability, good water parameters, regular water changes, and cleaning and the tank will get better and better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hello:)

I've read everything that was suggested to me and did more research based off what I read. I re-started my 26G tank. I felt like I needed to understand water chemistry more thoroughly because I'll be honest and say it's not very interesting to me and once I felt like I had a reasonable grasp of the nitrogen cycle I didn't pay much more attention to it. It definitely deserves more of my attention I think though because it doesn't seem to matter what you read about, algae, sick fish, dying plants etc, poor water quality and bad husbandry come up OVER AND OVER. For a while I kept dismissing those as "not my problem" because I am not lazy and I do weekly 20% pwc's and I vacuum my sand and I clean my filters regularly. I haven't worked for a couple years now but when I did I was a sterile processor of surgical instruments and so I've gained more than average understanding of how viruses and bacteria can spread and grow and how important cleanliness is to living things. With constant issues though and the subject being brought up repeatedly I decided I need to make sure I am not missing something.

We had an old ph meter and a tds meter I decided to pull out of the basement and start using. I bought some ph 4 and ph 7 test solutions to check the ph meter and I bought 1000 tds testing solution to calibrate and check the the tds meter. Both seem to work fairly reasonably as I checked calibration on them daily for the first week ( i also used my nutrafin liquid ph test to compare the meter to as well) and every few days after. I don't think they are 100% accurate but I feel they are close enough to get an idea of what is happening in my tanks. I've been testing ph and tds daily in my betta's 10g tank and the re-started 26g. I thought I would check both because the 10G hasn't had any problems since I cycled it. It is low light and no co2 with most of the same plants minus the baby tears and red reineckii. I was hoping to compare some differences between the two different set-ups that would help me in some way. I also checked the KH and GH (using a nutrafin liquid test) and nitrate (nutrafin liquid test) levels in them as Reckon suggested. Obviously the 26G did not have nitrates for some time since it's just been re-started and needs to cycle. But previous to all this I had noticed that my nitrates were always non-existent in both tanks. I also tested my tap water straight out of the tap and saved some to re-test 24 hours later to see how much it changes.

I read a lot of forums about a lot of subjects but previous to these aquariums have not really done much posting. As far as forum etiquette I'm not certain if I should be starting a new thread or maybe more than one regarding my experiences the last few weeks from reading what you've all suggested and with all my tests. Please feel free to to clarify this if I should be posting differently.

So I did my KH and GH tests for 2 consecutive days at 10 am:

Tap water straight from tap
GH = 40 ppm
KH = 40 ppm
PH = 7.4
TDS = 50 ppm

10g day 1
GH = 80 ppm
KH = 50 pmm
PH = 7.8
TDS = 90 ppm

26g day 1
GH = 80 ppm
KH = 60 ppm
PH = 7.0
TDS = 60 ppm

Tap water 24 hours later
GH = 60 ppm
KH = 40 ppm
PH = 7.7
TDS = 40 ppm

10g day 2
GH = 80 ppm
KH = 40 ppm
PH = 7.8
TDS = 90 ppm

26g day 2
GH = 60 ppm
KH = 50 ppm
PH = 7.6
TDS =60 ppm

I continued testing the PH daily and it fluctuates more than I think it should. This is with no co2 in either tank as I hadn't turned it back on right away in the 26g. The highest has been 7.8 and the lowest was 7.3. Water changes definitely affect my PH. It steadily drops throughout the week. My tap water straight out of the tap has a 7.4 PH. After 24 hours it goes up but my tanks ph goes down throughout the week. How can that be?

I also wanted to see how much fertilizer I had to put in to make my tds go up because I was dosing .65 ml a day of a pmdd mixture and it wasn't increasing my tds at all. It's my understanding this is why ei dosing does 50% pwc weekly? So these numbers don't continue to climb? The water changes remove "excess" and so I think it's safe to assume if my tds isn't going up over the week and I'm not seeing any nitrates (10g and the 26g have been showing 0 nitrates for weeks now) then my plants are using all that I'm adding? Is this correct?

So I added .65 mls at a time until the tds meter read 10 higher. This took 5.65ml of pmdd to accomplish, so 5mls vs the .65 I have been dosing. I only did this the one time, just to see.

I re-started the 26g on July 22 and I tested it and dosed it with the .65mls of pmdd daily. I could see some of the cyano coming back but it was minimal, I figured it was because I hadn't treated the plants before putting them back in. On Aug 1st I turned the co2 back on to see how it was going to change my tests, if at all. Within 2 days that gosh darn cyano made an aggressive return! It's everywhere again! So the co2 is definitely one of causes. Dou suggested that lack of oxygen is a major contributor to cyano. I've always wondered how the flow is in my tank but didn't really know how to test it. Since that damn cyano is back full force I can't make things worse so I cranked the the co2 right up so I could watch the bubbles and see where they all go to. I don't think circulation or lack of flow is my issue. I can watch the bubbles move up and then when they hit the spray bar current they go back down, all the way down. I can see them within 1/4 1/2 an inch from the bottom of the tank. Then they move toward the filter intake and then push past it along the back wall of the aquarium and travel it's length. I can see movement in every plant in the aquarium including the low growers. There is one spot that has definitely less movement than the rest of the tank but the plants and bubbles still move through the area. Can I reasonably eliminate low oxygen and/or low flow as a contributor? Another major contributor to cyano is excess phosphates usually caused by overfeeding fish or decaying plants. Since I have no fish to feed and I cleaned out all the dead plants AND the pmdd mixture doesn't contain phospates, I think it's fair to eliminate that as well?

I went back to reading and researching. I think my light is too powerful. I think I am feeding too little but I don't think I would be able to increase the ferts and/or co2 enough to balance with the light if I wish to keep fish in there, which I do. I also don't think I agree with the pmdd theory of algae control and I bought some nitrogen but couldn't get any phosphates locally. Once I get some I think I'm going to do ei dosing for a while so that I can be certain that I don't have nutrient deficiencies while I begin making adjustments to my light and co2 because my "gut" is telling me I'm deficient in one or more nutrients or I have some nutrient blocking going on with this all in one macros and micros fertilizer I'm currently using.

I also plan to research GH and KH some more because it's clear that there is no perfect numbers but it seems my water is on the low end of the scale. A few sites have vaguely mentioned numbers that are ALWAYS in the 100's. Mine seem like they could be low and I might have to do some adjusting there but my focus has been on this cyano so I haven't read enough about it yet.

So I still don't know what I'm doing wrong but I feel like I'm ahead of the game with a plan from the advice and suggestions received here. I also need to deal with the lack of nitrates that Reckon mentioned but I'm not going to risk my betta's health doing any changes to his tank until I know what I'm doing. The 26g has just started showing nitrates the last few days due to it being in cycle still but that is one of the reasons that my mind keeps disagreeing with people suggesting I'm overdosing nutrients. One of the major reasons we do water changes is that nitrates are the end of the line in an aquarium and I should be seeing some, sometimes. Especially if I'm feeding my plants too much. Is this correct? Since I haven't for weeks and weeks I know that something is using them because they don't go away on their own.

PS: To Jousters, I definitely will get pressurized co2 asap. I just can't put out the 300 bucks right now but I definitely learned that my co2 is GREATLY affecting things in my aquarium the way it made that cyano blow up again. I do think however that this version is a lot more stable than the yeast and sugar method. I've read about the struggles of others with their own diy and I don't seem to have those issues. I get co2 as soon as I make it and set it up. I don't have to "wait a couple days for the reaction to start". I can also control the flow and I check on it every hour or so and do a recheck on the bpm and as far as I can tell it stays fairly stable. I can also turn it off at night. I do have to waste about a 1/3 of the mixture each time because I do notice a steady drop off in pressure once about 2/3rds of the citric acid is used up. I just throw it away and start over though. However, since the explosion with cyano when I turned it back on, I've been pushing my better half to put out the money for pressurized cause it's very clear to me that a reliable stable supply is going to help me troubleshoot more effectively.

Any more tips, thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm happy to try whatever right now because even if it doesn't work, I'll learn something else, right? :) Thanks again for everyone's time and efforts to help me, I really appreciate it.
 

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Hi Jacksmom,

Is the ppmd a mixture meant to increase gH? Or is this a general dosing mixture that contains both macro and micro nutrients? If this is the latter and your goal is to increase the gH, I would recommend that you get an additive that specifically adds hardness/mineral content to your water. I have only used seachem equilibrium and that has been working pretty well for me (only downside is that it takes time to dissolve, it's not immediate).

Regarding the pH fluctuations, it does seem like quite a bit. I'm using the API test kit but my pH never fluctuates too much. Perhaps you should try not dosing at all and measuring the water changes to see if there's anything else at play? Once this is stable - then add the gH and get it to what you want - then monitor again.

Regarding the Cyanobacteria... My guess is that it's still low oxygen levels and/or poor flow... I think you should test this idea (since it worked for me) by adding an air pump w/ air stone and increasing the flow. They are relatively inexpensive (you will probably be able to find a used on) and I'm sure everything in your tank will appreciate the extra oxygen.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but its hard to manage/pinpoint concerns* when there are too many things going on. Since you're cautious about algae, I would do everything minimally or not even at all - ex. low light period, no dosing. Also, if you don't have too many plants I would hold back even more. I'm quite the haphazard type and I like to experiment a lot - and I think it's much easier to start with low light/dosing. I was going to talk about how stems plants/rooters don't need much dosing - but I noticed that whenever my monte carlo leaves turned transparent and I added more potassium, they would solidify back up... I guess what I'm trying to say is that your dosing should really depend on how many plants you have and what kind of plants you have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hello Dou:)

Thanks again for your efforts to help me get this sorted out.

The pmdd is simply an all purpose fertilizer we picked up near the beginning of our plant troubles. We did not purchase it with GH in mind at all. Honestly I don't think when we purchased it we had even heard of GH, yet. A few people suggested that we should try some sort of ferts because our plants were dying even after we upgraded the light. This is what it contains :

1 Teaspoon Potassium Nitrate
2 Teaspoons Potassium Sulphate
2.5 Tablespoons Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts)
1 Tablespoon Chelated Trace Element Mix (7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06% Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA, DTPA) - TNC Trace
300 ml distilled H2O

I have been dosing .65ml a day with this. We were still at the very beginning of our fish keeping journey and chose it simply for the "all purpose all in one" since we were already feeling a little overwhelmed and it was very clear early that dry ferts would be much cheaper than liquid ones. It definitely helped at first, that was the beginning of the two months where I thought things were coming together, lol.

As for GH, I've only just really started researching it and still don't know if I need to make changes to it. I just noticed it seems low compared to what many sites, blogs and people say theirs is. Same with tds. But little to no research means I don't have a lot to say about it yet. It was mentioned more than once through my posts here and other forums I've read so I'm definitely gonna look into it but first this darn cyano!

We have an air pump and airstone so I will put those in tonight and see what happens. Not sure what I could do about increasing the flow without getting another filter in there, correct? I might be able to get one, I have a friend who seems to have a lot of fish things in her basement:p Will the airstone alone make a difference? Should I add that right away? How long is fair trial to see a difference? A week?

Agreed about slowing down. I did a bunch of crazy stuff this last couple weeks to see what would happen. Now I'm gonna turn the light to it's lowest intensity, leave it on for 8 hours and try your airstone while I figure out how I'm gonna try to feed them. I already know they'll die with nothing because that is what got me to start feeding them. But I think I added light and food at the same time instead of one after another to know which made specific things happen.
 

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Cyano will thrive in high light and low nitrogen levels.

You can try dosing the entire tank with erythromycin as someone else mentioned. That will either kill it or make it stronger. But that stuff kills off good bacteria as well so keep that in mind. Just spare yourself the trouble and stop bleaching everything, that's going to lead to a disaster.

Sorry it's morning and I'm tired, so forgive me for asking this if you already have posted it. But what's your plant load like, and how long are your lights on for? Can you get a pic of it?
 
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